Hosting - Legal issue / Client not paid

[Anonymoose]

Just wondering where I stand with this.

A client has not paid their bill for months and I went to remove the work I had done. I informed them recently that this is the case.

I just went to FTP into the site and it appear they have changed FTP details. I know they're technically clueless so they must have asked the hosting company to facilitate this.

So, they're still using my work and I cannot remove it. Would most Irish hosting companies be on client or my side on this?

 

[louie]

have you got a contract signed? without one you might not have many choices but play nice (might be too late)

 

[Anonymoose]

Hi louie
I dont have a contract signed but I'm more interested in what the hosting company would think if I called them and explained the situation. I suppose they would need proof but they are facilitating a bad client who is trying to get away without paying.

 

[reverbstudios]

Ah, a topic close to my heart!

If it was their own hosting account you used then you might be out of luck but I would drag their name through the mud online until you get some justice. I'm planning to list all the clients I've had trouble getting money off on my blog and elsewhere soon.

I take down many a site these days because IGNORANT BASTARD clients let you do the work and then ignore invoices for months on end. Let me be unequivocal, THEY are in the wrong not you but for some bizarre reason, technically, you can't take down a site unless a contract has been signed. I know this because I got legal advice about it recently. I still take down sites in an effort to get paid because most clients wont know this law. Its usually enough to get paid when they see the control you retain.

You really need a reseller hosting account that only you have control of not the client. You deal with the hosting company you bought the reseller account from and they shouldn't entertain anyone else.

You need to get contracts signed before work begins or at the very least (although this probably wouldn't stand up in a court) put some terms and conditions on your quote/estimate documents that state something like "acceptance of this estimate enters you into a contract, etc.."

I avoid going down the road of getting a proper contract signed because its hassle and slows down everything and maybe even puts potential clients off but the above should be enough to avoid most problems..

PS - DON'T FEEL GUILTY FOR ASKING TO BE PAID NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU HAVE TO ASK!

 

[Anonymoose]

The sad thing is, I know their other suppliers are not being paid either. Their part of the site is still live and I dont think they realise how bad their situation is - they just have not looked for any money yet.

 

[link8r]

I really doubt the hosting company could help you - from the outset the data protection act would probably be a legal issue for them, plus the fact that they can't possibly hope to verify your argument.

I'm afraid you are in a very difficult situation - one I sympathise with 100%. We have a complete retention of title, developed by 2 legal firms - yet that didn't stop a Limerick Judge overruling the RoT as he ruled the site was IP (even though our Terms of Trade cover IP even more stricly) - but we didn't even get a chance to appear or notice of.

So unless you've got the spondoola's to fork out on solicitors and court costs, you might want to write this off....

As an aside, there is definitely a demand for a proper web industry body to help clarify web rights -v- Irish Judicial practice / understanding by business people. Websites are rarely products - they are built to order - its not our fault if the orders are ****ed up!

maybe I'll follow this up...

 

[mneylon]

If the hosting account is the client's we'd politely but firmly tell you to get lost until you got a court order.

 

[Byron]

Hi link8r,

I proposed such an idea about two months ago and never got anyone down on paper on it. I think a form of guild would be great, whereby we have verified standards in relation to what we provide to clients, a full directory of all members, a legal charter which states that we act in the best interest of the supplier and client, and a few other things, like handy help tutorials for people seeking website design, to prove that picking proper, verified members is the way to go.

Then if the default we can catch them on the fact we have a bad debts blacklist, only internally available to members, which means if any client defaults on one member, another can exorbitantly charge them in advance and return a part of that bad debt to the original company as agreed internally. Also this would quickly weed out rough traders, and generally raise the standard of development.

We wouldn't need massive members fee's like several bodies charge or to have major qualifications, just genuine interest in quality of service and getting paid. As far as skillset, maybe you have had to have had five paying clients of over €800.00 and be willing to submit a few of those for looking over. Not perfect HTML, but decent enough quality for people needing websites in that section, e.g. for the first year of membership, you might be a provisional member, and a full time member is assigned to voluntarily recommend you. This should protect everyone, from the extra cash developer to a full SME web dev. company.

Of course people will argue this could be seen as regulation, but not really, there wouldn't be any fee's involved, other than maybe a tenner a year for hosting, every conference etc is extra for people who want / feel they should attend, and there are no set limits on quality, once it is not blatantly poor workmanship.

Generally a forum to promote web developers and protect them and their trade as a recognised and important industry in the Irish economy. I know we have internet bodies, lets face it though, they have little or no understanding of what HTML, PHP or W3C is (not that I have ), but an independent body, with maybe a board of ten or 15 active members on here, would really help to solve things into the future.

Let me know what you think.
Maybe a new thread... again?

Cheers and happy sunshine,
Byron

 

[link8r]

Hi Byron,

Sorry I missed your earlier suggestion - and maybe we should bring this under a new thread (and apologies for hijacking this one!) but I think so...

Everything you say makes sense. There is another web body in Ireland but they're clearly just a company trying to make money, not a representation group (IMHO). Nothing at all wrong with that.

I think the body could solve a number of key issues facing (whether its faced them now or soon) the web knowledge industry, for the benefit of it's members:

• Firming up Intellectual Property Rights and Copyright issues - the Irish legal system is NOT on top of this - they've been running around for years selling houses. This is such a quagmire.
• Credit Rating System - if it's for members and the information is properly managed, then I believe from previous enquiries, the Data Protection Commission would have no problems with that
• Quality Standards - I think there are a lot of companies/individuals dragging the standard of the web down, through sheer ignorance in many cases
• Arbitration - we could approach someone qualified to act as an arbitrator - and have this written into members contracts who could intervene where there was a disagreement - obviously someone neutral. This would save clients and contractors a lot of hassle.

The Irish web body should be doing this - it's almost in "the name" but I think they've found a niche whereby they are using this name to sell training and consultancy services. Fine with me by all means but it leaves the gap wide open...

 

[Byron]

Certainly I believe this is worth pushing. It is important to allow all ICANN accredited hosting domain providers in also to be aware of disputes.

If people are interested in this, maybe post a reply and let me know, and obviously we'd need some big names, to be honest I'd probably only want to be something like encouraging new members and doing some of the "luggan" work.

If the key players on this forum are interested I'd certainly push for it. So you know who you are, are you fed up having unpaid invoices and being underqouted by people offering redundant technology?

 

[mneylon]

What has ICANN got to do with hosting?

 

[Byron]

Ek,
Kinda mumbled my words. But Irish ICANN registrars and IEDR Table A ones. Obviously we would have other procedures which we would need to discuss, but there's no point in allowing in high charging resellers unless they design and develop as their core business.

Surely it will weaken any such body if people are charging upwards of €400.00 for a basic hosting as members, and we have a situation whereby a charity is getting totally shafted, or we are drawing up consumer guidelines. (Btw I'm not saying anything isn't a fair amount depending on circumstances), but we need people who have been recommended, or verified somehow.

 

[mneylon]

There is only one Irish ICANN accredited registrar (there are officially two, but one of them no longer deals in domains)
There are only five Irish Eurid registrars
I'm not sure how many Nominet registrars there are with Irish bases, but I suspect about 10 or so.

But I digress ...

What people charge for hosting has nothing to do with registrar accreditation.

Registrars have a right to adopt whichever business model they see fit.

So if they want to charge people 300 euro / year for a domain then they're entitled to do so.

 

[Byron]

Fair Enough,
This is exactly why we need discussion, I am not an expert, I just see that people aren't having their bills paid, maybe yourself Blacknight and some others with more experience can decide what criteria should be used in relation to hosting and domain providers if a new body would be set up.

Would you potentially be interested in such an idea?

 

[mneylon]

I don't have an issue with getting involved with something which covers business practices, but I would walk away from anything which tried to enforce any form of pricing rules

 

[Byron]

Ok, I think this idea will die in hypothetical situations actually!

Ok, a broad idea is, as Link8r suggested, with a few new ideas added:

• Firming up Intellectual Property Rights and Copyright issues - the Irish legal system is NOT on top of this - they've been running around for years selling houses. This is such a quagmire.
• Credit Rating System - if it's for members and the information is properly managed, then I believe from previous enquiries, the Data Protection Commission would have no problems with that
• Quality Standards - I think there are a lot of companies/individuals dragging the standard of the web down, through sheer ignorance in many cases
• Arbitration - we could approach someone qualified to act as an arbitrator - and have this written into members contracts who could intervene where there was a disagreement - obviously someone neutral. This would save clients and contractors a lot of hassle.
• A purely supplier orientated organisation, with limits in relation to quality and logical grievance procedures, but nothing that impinges on the rights of the supplier to charge what they want. In cases of disputes between suppliers and clients, there would be a system of arbitration, as link8r described above.

Any more ideas, or is that the rough idea, and maybe we can start up a new thread in the coming days with terms and ideas under which such a body could operate. An open forum would allow all users, all over Ireland on the forum to talk on issues and then members could nominate themselves and we could have a meeting at the end of June with maybe 15 or so members to talk about how to get the ball rolling.

 

[reverbstudios]

I am considering setting up some members only site for Irish Designers just for this reason. Need to think about legality of it at the moment. Let me just say re. above that client is involved in Online education / Learning.

Well a members only list of crappy clients would be handy but it needs to be public to injure them and make them stop!? We'd probably get sued but if you've got evidence you done the work and sent the invoices but never got any money in then you'd probably win the case!

 

[neweb]

Getting paid is one of the hardest parts of this industry.

I have taken down sites that are in arrears for as little as 45 euro. As fare as I see it, that is my money and it must be paid.
I am in the lucky position to have my own shared hosting and recently added VPS hosting. So I have full control over clients sites.

I do think that some form of partnership should be setup with hosting and design companies.

For example, if a web design company is building a site for X-Company that is hosted on say Blacknight. Then the design company can inform the hosting company that they are working on a clients site and register a design reference number with them.

Should an issue arise over payment then the design company can quote the reference number to the hosting company and they can then remove the site until payment has been made.


I can perfectly understand a hosting company not giving out information to a third party but we do need some form of co-operation between hosting and design. If for no other reason but to protect each other.

 

[Pixelcraft]

not sure what advantages that has to a host, as they are almost always prepaid. I think designers just need to start doing the same, or at least a large percentage.

 

[neweb]

not sure what advantages that has to a host, as they are almost always prepaid. I think designers just need to start doing the same, or at least a large percentage.

I have done just that.
For site updates you have to buy credit (100/150/200/250 and so on)
No credit no update, simple as that!

The problem is with new designs. Its hard to get someone to sign a contract or pre-pay credit.